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Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

topic posted Wed, August 9, 2006 - 7:27 PM by  Chaz
Why is it so difficult to convey to another what is understood about enlightenment? Is enlightenment a universal truth or is it only some solipsitic encounter which makes it damn near impossible? Don't start with the normal spiritual crap about how enlightenment is not a concept and therefore cannot be transmitted. I personally am fully enlightened. This mind and body that is attached just haven't fully caught on to that fact yet.

Sidenote - mainly venting but feel free to comment: I live in a heavily deluded Southern Baptist environment. Everyone, Everyone that I come in contact with on a regular basis is steeped in religion. When any of them finds out that I am "not on the same page" as them they ask why. All that ever comes out of me is what I don't believe which leads them into accusations and eternal damnations. The one thing that I want to convey to them is that it is possible to be free from all of this external security crap and that the truth is within...when I tell them that they want proof!!!
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Chaz
offline Chaz
Ohio
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  • Fran...
    Francescoco
    offline 42

    Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

    Thu, August 10, 2006 - 3:14 AM
    <<<Chaz wrote: "...I personally am fully enlightened...">>>

    Great. So you can tell us what enlightenment is.
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    • joe
      joe
      offline 7

      Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

      Thu, August 10, 2006 - 8:16 AM
      exactly.

      if you are so enlightened- YOU can answer the question.

      Also, what makes you think you are "fully" enlightened? Is there a partial enlightenment?
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      • Chaz
        Chaz
        offline 4

        Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

        Thu, August 10, 2006 - 11:29 AM
        >Also, what makes you think you are "fully" enlightened?

        I don't really think about it. When thinking about it occurs I see an accusatory part of consciousness come in and try to reason as to why that is not possible. Just as your thinking about it might have caused the same reaction.

        >what makes you think you are "fully" enlightened?

        I guess I could have used an opposite, "emptily" (is that a word?). Why so much focus on this statement?
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        • joe
          joe
          offline 7

          Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

          Thu, August 10, 2006 - 4:58 PM
          actually that accustaory doubting never comes up for me. I had a "false enlightenment" about 2 years ago. When the real deal occured, there was no doubt.

          Those who DIE know it at a level that is knowing and not belief. Belief implies disbelief.
          KNowing, Sieeing Being the IS, the IT is beyond refutation.
          Also, questions of why and anger (protection of the ego) and fear (protection of the body) arise rarely. Also, I find I am very "lazy" - nothng to become, strive for, attain.

          Eventually, not even any "I". I being a 'reflection" in the mind. That place beyond time/space/concept/mind where the understander and understood are one.

          Infinity is not "just a really really long time" It is no time and this cannot be conceived of by the mind.

          but I digress ;-)

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    • Chaz
      Chaz
      offline 4

      Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

      Thu, August 10, 2006 - 11:54 AM
      That comment brings me back to the question -> Why is it so hard to describe what enlightenment is to others?
      Why is it so elusive, the ability to communicate a personal truth understood and termed as "enlightenment"?

      Have you seen the matrix?
      It is kind of like Neo's situation. He wants to know what the matrix is but until he is actually outside of it, he can't really know what is real. The people who have seen what the truth is cannot just say "This is a dream. You don't know who you really are." He follows the advice given to him by these people and he wakes up to the truth.
      The essence of this last paragraph has answered my question. Thanks Francesco for being the catalyst to inquiry.

      Enlightenment... ok. I can't say exactly what it is. No description could ever say What It Is. The word is extremely misleading...it would be just the same, calling it "Bob".
      Those of us who have seen the truth behind the word enlightenment by grace/providence/psychedelia/etc. understand what it is.
      Those who have not cannot imagine or think themselves into it because it is beyond the mind's ability.
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      • Fran...
        Francescoco
        offline 42

        Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

        Thu, August 10, 2006 - 12:35 PM
        Well Chaz - I'm genuinely pleased for you. You've obviously arrived somewhere, and you are at peace. No longer searching because you are 'there' at what you imagine to be that magical destination that everybody goes on about.

        Me, I wouldn't agree that there is a 'destination' as such to strive for, so I don't have the luxury/peace of arriving, but I do have the excitement of remaining curious.
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      • joe
        joe
        offline 7

        Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

        Thu, August 10, 2006 - 4:52 PM
        the problem with the matix analogy is that Neo still thinks he is someone or at least something that all this is hapening to. (OK, he still thinks he is the author of his actions...)

        "Full" to use your term, enlightnement shows there is no one here, this is not happening to anyone, in fact there is nothing happening at all.
        Have you realized the truth of yur own non-existence yet?

        It's easy to call all this a dream...but it is belief or direct knowing?

        I would say that enlightenment is but the first step. So I'm with chaz on this one.
        Until the belief in one's own self, idenntification with body/mind/ego "dies" then not much is going to happen.

        Also, enlightenment is not an exprience, state of mind or being or "glimpse".
        Yes it is possible to have Nondual expriences and glimpses by various means (drugs = you can go but you can't stay) but these are all transitory.
        Many who think they are enlightened are astounded (to say the least) when they truly "die".

        I would consider it to be a root, fundamental perspective shift so profound as to totally reraange one's view of the world and themselves.

        For example:

        Are there other people?

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  • Kris...
    Kristjan
    offline 5

    Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

    Thu, August 10, 2006 - 11:00 PM
    > I personally am fully enlightened. <

    it's funny when a peace of fesh claims to be anything other than a peace of flesh. I mean monnkey can but on a crown and think he is a king of te beasts till Lion appears and eats him.

    whatever you think universe is or what enlightenemnt is for you.. when you leave this world it has no meaning what so ever. It's not even like whoa.. man I thought it was different but it's so much cooler. Enlightenment and those thoughts are a cultural inprint the other side of the war your fighting to keep your universe clean. There are guys out there(on the way to zion if you like) who claim they are God.
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  • joe
    joe
    offline 7

    Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

    Sun, August 13, 2006 - 10:33 PM
    Do you mean what it is like to be enlightened? Well, for one thing, it's not an experience - so there's nothing to convey. Also, an experience cannot be conveyed or shared.

    Or, do you mean "touch me and convey your enlightenment to me".
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    • कल्क...
      कल्कि ॐJuBaLॐ
      offline 681

      hmmm....

      Sun, August 13, 2006 - 10:53 PM
      You've already stated that you are skeptical of the existence of enlightenment.... therefore you have not experienced it... thus you don't have a clue what it's about... correct?
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      • Fran...
        Francescoco
        offline 42

        Re: hmmm....

        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 12:16 AM
        <<<Jubal wrote: "...you have not experienced it... thus you don't have a clue what it's about... correct?">>>

        Bloody hell Jubal. The above would only be correct if the experience you speak of was in fact "enlightenment". What you mean to say is that Joe doesn't have a clue what YOU are on about. Enlightenment? Perhaps. You clearly had a powerful experience of some sort. But don't let me spell out what the alternative explanations are... Shit - lets do anyway: good drugs (plus flashbacks?); mania; brain tumour; etc. But then you might be very impressed by something that 90% of the world regards as normal.

        Jubal - with your statement you are also in the very same league as most happy-clappy fundamentalists who claim they've experienced 'God'. They would come out with almost EXACTLY the same as what you just said ("you haven't experienced it and therefore you don't have a clue clue"). Pulleeeze....
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        • joe
          joe
          offline 7

          Re: hmmm....

          Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:30 AM
          OK, so you "Wake Up". What does this mean?

          I think it means becoming aware of the "true nature" of existence and being.

          Becoming aware of being aware.

          This includes seeing and accepting the "emptiness" underlying all.
          There is no "reality" behind things and form, including one's own "self".
          It means one sees clearly that there appear to be actions, form, thoughts, consequences, choices, but there is no way to actually choose and change what unfolds.

          Analogy:
          You all of a sudden realize that what you had thought to be an infinite universe is really a kind of Disneyland. And that all things are "mechanical" and "programmed". Including you!
          You can clearly see the gears and circuits and the programming happening.
          But, you have no "conscious" awareness of how this happens and no ability to "consciously" affect what occurs.
          You basically would have to be content to sit and watch "you" do whatever it is that you are programmed to do.
          So, in effect, you know you are a programmed machine, and your knowing you are a programmed machine is part of your programming.
          So, what are you in reality? Any "thing" you point to is part of the programming.

          So, what are you really? Is there something beyond the programming?
          If the programming enables/creates all form, then there cannot be any"thing" which is not programmed, not form, not existing.

          I call it Pure Potential.

          This is not a "thing". It is the infinite, undifferentiated, undefined source of all, infinite possibility. It cannot be said to exist. It needs form, the programming, to "know itself" in the sense of I know that thing.
          Without form, space, time, concepts.
          Knowing just IS
          Understanding just IS
          Seeing just IS

          So, seeking enlightenment? more programming
          Frustration, fear, suffering, love? more programming
          No one part of the programming is "better' than another.
          How could it be?
          Desire to awaken, desire to be free, desire to understand what and how the programming happens.
          More programming.
          The programmed cannot transcend it's programming.
          and,
          there is no programmer.

          So, no god, no one watching, this is not all happening "somewhere".

          So, are there others? are there beings?
          Who can say? How wouldyo know
          All you "know"
          is more programming.
          You cannot get outside or beyond your own programming.
          Even the idea that you can or the desire to get beyond your own programming
          is more programming.
          So, relax and accept it
          or not
          It's still more programming.
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          • कल्क...
            कल्कि ॐJuBaLॐ
            offline 681

            Re: hmmm....

            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 11:56 AM
            <I think it means becoming aware of the "true nature" of existence and being.>

            You think? Ahhhh.... that explains it! ~8)

            Ideas about the Divine by one who has not yet experienced the Divine... are about as useful as an unhatched baby chicks ideas about the outside world... ~8)
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          • asa
            asa
            offline 21

            Re: hmmm....

            Sat, July 21, 2007 - 8:57 PM
            what do i know but from where i see it the question is unanswerable. if you ask me if i am enlightened and if i am there is no one there to answer the question. if i do answer the question in the affirmative then there is yet an i who is deluded and i as an i have personal reasons for selfish ends. surely the Lord isn`t aware of enlightment as that means it`s opposite also exists in and as the Lord which then means conditionality.
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        • कल्क...
          कल्कि ॐJuBaLॐ
          offline 681

          Re: hmmm....

          Mon, August 14, 2006 - 11:51 AM
          Fran, I've experienced the divine my entire life... long before I ever did drugs of any kind... Who are you to say I haven't experienced Enlightenment? Who are you to say what Enlightenment is or is not if you in fact have not experienced it? And if you have experienced it then I challenge you and your other Psychologist colleagues that have infiltrated these enlightenment message boards to tell us what enlightenment is... All you've done so far is criticize others and attempt to disprove it... what's your game really? Why are you on a holy crusade against enlightenment?
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          • Fran...
            Francescoco
            offline 42

            Re: hmmm....

            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 2:17 PM
            Jubal - I am as interested in enlightenment as anybody else here. I think you are having a very bad day Jubal. "Infiltration"? "My game"? I did fully explain in my last post what my "game" is, but here goes again... I open discussions about principles, and people who proclaim their enlightenment and/or divinity actually kill off genuine curiosity. If they are "it" and know "the way" there wouldn't be anything to be curious about and discuss now would there?
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            • joe
              joe
              offline 7

              Re: hmmm....

              Mon, August 14, 2006 - 2:24 PM
              from Wikipedia:

              Paranoia is a an excessive anxiety or fear concerning one's own well-being which is considered irrational and excessive, perhaps to the point of being a psychosis. This typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a likely threat, or a belief in a conspiracy theory.

              Of course, paranoia is a perfectly defenisble postion.
              And, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really after ypu.

              Fran, LOL bless you three times.
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              • Fran...
                Francescoco
                offline 42

                Re: hmmm....

                Mon, August 14, 2006 - 2:27 PM
                Bless you too father (Joe) and bless you son (Jubal).
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                • कल्क...
                  कल्कि ॐJuBaLॐ
                  offline 681

                  Re: hmmm....

                  Mon, August 14, 2006 - 8:59 PM
                  Sooooooo..... I'm paranoid and or having a bad day because I'm calling you out on your game huh? LOL! That's pretty rich! Siriusly... I'm not calling you on your shit because I'm pissed off... I'm calling you on your shit because I love you ~8)

                  Oh and by the way... flame me all you like... call me all the names you want... but you're not fooling anyone... and I'm not responding to you any more until you can tell us all what enlightenment is as we have all explained it to you over and over again... Especially you Francesco... you do nothing but condescend to others on these boards... You call talking at people and demeaning them discussion? Because I don't. Every time someone says something you don't like you respond with an insult... you call that discussion?

                  Here's a suggestion... Go find material for your case studies somewhere else... nuff said!
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Fran...
                    Francescoco
                    offline 42

                    Re: hmmm....

                    Tue, August 15, 2006 - 12:16 AM
                    <<<Jubal wrote: "...flame me all you like... call me all the names you want...">>>

                    Who's flaming who? The worst I've called you is that "you're having a bad day". And how am I doing nothing but talking at people and demeaning them? Possibly somewhat sceptical, but ´demeaning´? Sure. I´m not someone who will uncritically accept any old BS, but look at it as a sign of respect if someone takes the time and trouble to pull and prod a bit. And Jubal, thank God your hero Bill Hicks is not a member of this tribe - he'd really freak you out....

                    <<<Jubal wrote: "...I'm not responding to you any more until you can tell us all what enlightenment is as we have all explained it to you over and over again... Especially you Francesco...´

                    You must be pretty pissed off. Like I said before I can´t tell you what enlightenment is. I have a genuine interest in it though. Could it also be that you are angry because I haven´t accepted your claim to be an enlightened Master?
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          • joe
            joe
            offline 7

            Re: hmmm....

            Mon, August 14, 2006 - 2:29 PM
            And if you have experienced it then I challenge you and your other Psychologist colleagues that have infiltrated these enlightenment message boards to tell us what enlightenment is.

            Rats, he found out! The Internations Psychologists Conspiriacy To Remove Enlightenment. Guess we'll have to change our name...drat.



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      • joe
        joe
        offline 7

        Re: hmmm....

        Mon, August 14, 2006 - 6:31 AM
        quite true. "Joe" the role being played, the thoughtform, the appearance in consciosness is not enlightened.
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  • kelly
    kelly
    offline 7

    Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

    Thu, August 17, 2006 - 8:24 PM
    My name is kelly, i know you have no clue who i am, but i was raised southern baptist.. and i was enveloped in it. Whether you believe in christianity or not, there is a verse in the new test. (i think romans) that says to not cast your pearls before swine, they will trample them. basically, keep your wisdom to yourself because this knowledge of truth-- that wisdom cannot be viewed as precious by people who allow to put God or this energy source in such a small box such as religion. I was raised with that hell fire and damnation, how jesus will float down from the sky and "rapture" us. What if that "rapture" is this evolution or enlightenment that you talk about (us being taken out of this old mindset and higher into our enlightened new mindset) and what if the ones that will be "left behind" are the ones that choose not to take hold of this power that has been given to us? I just want to encourage you to not let religious people get to you. Their plan in the universe is just as important as yours or mine. Even if it is to remind us how great we have it that we aren't where they are. Thanks for the discussion though, take care.
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  • Eric
    Eric
    online 29

    Re: Why is it so difficult, conveying enlightenment?

    Fri, March 2, 2007 - 6:46 AM
    Enlightenment involves the realization that there is no OTHER. As there is no other, that would make it nondual - or advaita.

    Language, by its very nature, is dual. A chair can only be a chair...you can not look at a cat and say chair - people will know it is not a chair and you used the wrong word. But there is no word that exists to describe or talk about Enlightenment – directly or accurately.

    So you can't say "Enlightenment is (insert word)"...for as soon as you name it - it is not Enlightenment. The Tao that can be name is not the Tao - that sort of thing. As soon as you name it - you put it into duality, which it is not.

    Nagarjuna said...it is not this, nor that, nor both, nor neither. That is the best description I have found yet.

    So how do you transmit it? Well being around an Enlightened person does have a certain amount of transmission by being in their presence...that is called darshan in India. But also a way to help convey Enlightenment is to help another drop their veils of ignorance, misunderstanding, misidentification, etc, etc...so they can realize Enlightenment - which has always been there.

    That is another reason why it is difficult to convey - how can you tell someone how to get to their home...when they are already there? Or it is like me asking you, how do I get to the Universe? I'm already here...in it. It is only my misunderstanding and belief I don't have it that is blocking me from realizing I am already there.

    Now if you were speaking to someone very rooted in duality and Maya - they will not only disbelieve you...but likely have no idea what you are talking about. People have to be ready to hear about such things. Usually, I don't talk about it with anyone who is not interested in personally waking up.

    If you are already Enlightened...there is no reason to discuss it with someone who is Enlightened also. There would be just a silence...of knowing.

    ~ Eric Putkonen
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